Full Text | ‘Kashmiris Feel Rejected by the Nation, Nobody Feels Our Pain’: Farooq Abdullah

On December 22, The Wire published a video interview of Farooq Abdullah by Karan Thapar. The interview covers a broad sweep of topics. The National Conference patriarch shouts in anger but also dissolves in tears as he spoke about the mood and situation in the Kashmir Valley, what it’s like to be a Muslim in India, the “ego” that is dividing opposition parties and preventing them from challenging the BJP, the draft proposals of the Delimitation Commission and the future of the People’s Alliance for the Gupkar Declaration.

Below is the full transcript of the interview. It has been slightly edited for style and clarity.

As 2021 winds to a close, we focus our attention on Kashmir. The situation in the valley, the political parties functioning in the state and most importantly how do they relate to the politics of the rest of India. My guest is the former chief minister of the state as it used to be and the president of the National Conference, Farooq Abdullah.

Abdullah, let’s start with the Delimitation Commission – it’s all over the papers and the news at the moment. Its draft proposal has suggested increasing seats in the Jammu and Kashmir assembly by seven, but six of those will go to Jammu and only one to Kashmir. And this is despite the fact that the 2011 Census has said that Kashmir has a population 15 lakh greater than Jammu. As president of the National Conference, how do you view this proposal?

First of all Karan, I would like to tell you, the nation is going to have delimitation done in 2026. We could have done it when I was the chief minister. At that time, we moved a proposal that we will not do it now, we will do it with the nation. I cannot understand what was the hurry for the BJP to get it done. Now its clear. You see the population, you yourself said 2011 Census shows Kashmir has more population. And basically, it was on a population basis that seats are organised and increased. But here, the commission, on the other hand, has completely ignored Kashmir and added seats in Jammu, fulfilling the dream of the BJP that they will win these seats and therefore make a government. That’s how we feel. They haven’t done justice.

So you are saying they have deliberately advanced the delimitation because they want to reduce the number of seats. And that’s precisely what the commission has proposed. They are going to give one extra to Kashmir, six more to Jammu and the difference between the two, which used to be nine seats, is now reduced to just four. 

I will tell you one more thing, when we went to the commission. My partner, a member of the parliament from Anantnag Justice Masoodi, put before them that we have sent a letter to you, to which you have not replied, in which we said that the matter is pending with the Supreme Court and therefore this exercise that you are doing is illegal. First of all, the chairperson of the commission said they have not seen the letter and that probably the letter has been kept away from them or from her. Secondly, I feel that when we spoke about it she said, “Yes, I accept that this exercise has been done. But whatever the Supreme Court will say that will be binding on us.”

So the letter you sent was not shown to the chairman of the commission and secondly, she seemed to agree that what they are doing could be in breach of the Supreme Court? 

Yes, she said that we agree but I have the mandate from the government and the parliament and I am filling that mandate. But if the Supreme Court tomorrow comes up with any suggestions, we will have to go by the Supreme Court’s verdict.

In which case will you now, as a party, go to the Supreme Court to say that this proposal is in breach of the Supreme Court’s verdict? 

Yes, yes. We are going to the Supreme Court anyway. Many parties have gone to the supreme court.

On this specific issue that the Delimitation Commission is working in breach of the Supreme Court?

Yes, we are going to go. And the way they have gone about it, if they take the population as the base then Kashmir should also get more seats. Why is it that they have given us only one seat and that too in Kupwara region? What about the other places? Srinagar itself has grown so much. In Jammu, there is a place called Gandhinagar, the population of that place has grown so much that they should have gotten another seat there. And even in West Jammu… they have become unwieldy.     

You are hoping that when you go to the Supreme Court, it will stop the exercise that the Delimitation Commission is carrying out. But if it doesn’t, because remember even on the 2019 matter [dilution of Article 370] the Supreme Court did not act. It claims it can reverse the clock. Maybe it will take the same position here, not act and say we will reverse the order.

They have not heard our petition yet. It is still there since they abrogated Article 370 and I don’t know why they are not listening.

Absolutely! And this matter, when you raise it with the Supreme Court could be similarly kicked into the long grass.

No. Because there are so many others. For instance, Kashmiri pandits feel that they should have seats. And Ashok Bhan, one of the senior advocates of the Supreme Court, has also gone (to court) and many others will also go.

So you are confident that because a lot of different people are going to the Supreme Court, it will act and stay what the Delimitation Commission is doing.

Well, we hope that the Supreme Court will act. We can’t force it to act. And hope that it will do justice.

If it doesn’t, what will you do then? Will you then accept what the Delimitation Commission has proposed?

We can’t jump the gun. Let’s wait and see what the Supreme Court says. Once it gives its direction then we will take the second step. I will come and tell you what step we will take.

But you are implacably opposed to Kashmir only getting one extra seat and Jammu getting six. To that you’re opposed?

We are. As my party has already said, we have made it clear. Omar [Abdullah] has made it very clear also. And yesterday, the meeting we held with all of us who are in the Gupkar Declaration [the People’s Alliance for Gupkar Declaration] also put this forward that we do not agree with this and that is why we are going to have a silent protest on January 1.

Okay. It is very clear from what you are saying, that you are going to go to the Supreme Court, you are going to say to the Supreme Court that the Delimitation Commission’s work is in complete and total breach of what the Supreme Court has said and therefore it should be stayed and it shouldn’t go further. But another aspect of what the Delimitation Commission has done is to increase reserved seats. There will now be 16 reserved seats for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, nine of which are for the Gujjar and Bakarwal. Is that acceptable to your party? 

See, Scheduled Caste has always had seven seats. There is nothing new in that. Nine seats have been created for the Scheduled Tribe. The point here is that since [Indira] Gandhi gave Scheduled Tribes [status] to Gujjars and Bakarwals, the Paharis in those regions feel that they have been let down. At that time, Mrs Gandhi promised in a meeting in March 1983, at the time of the election, that of the government of Farooq Abdullah writes to me, like I’ve given Scheduled Tribe to everybody in Ladakh, I will give it to the Paharis. This whole region I will give.

So is this acceptable to Farooq Abdullah?

To this day, they have not got this thing. So there is going to be further conflict between the Pahadis and the Gujjars. It’s going to divide people further.

But what is your party’s position on these reserved seats for the Bakarwals and the Gujjars?

We don’t mind that. It is all right because they also deserve it. But the point here is what about the others? They have been left out. So are you going to create more divisions in people’s minds or are you going to make a stronger state by having people come together?

So at multiple levels, the Delimitation Commission is creating problems. It has created problems in terms of Jammu and Kashmir, it’s creating problems between the Gujjars and the Pahadis, it’s creating problems between communities.

Kashmiri pandits and others. Sikhs, for instance, feel left out. People who come from Azad Kashmir, feel left out.

So the proposal put forward as a draft by the Delimitation Commission is absolutely unacceptable at multiple levels.

Yes, at multiple levels. One of the persons has already gone to the Supreme Court and others will follow.

Do you think you made a mistake by participating in Monday’s meeting of the Delimitation Commission? Sajjad Lone has gone on record to say that your earlier position was that even participation would be tantamount to recognising and accepting August 2019. Have you done that?

Let me tell you one thing. If we hadn’t gone, we wouldn’t have known what they are doing and on what basis they are doing it. People would still say, they have avoided it. They just don’t want to be part of the process. 

The question is, we don’t mind being part of the process. But the process should be for everyone.

In other words, you had to participate. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have found out what the draft proposal was.

Exactly, we wouldn’t have found out what it is, how it is done, what has been done, how they thought about it.

So by participating, you are not as Sajjad Lone says, tantamount to accepting the 2019 changes?

No. We have never accepted those and we will never accept them. Never! 

What about something else, has participation in Monday’s meeting created differences between you, your son and Mehbooba Mufti? Let me quote what Mehbooba Mufti said before the meeting, she said, “ I have no faith in the fairness of the commission.” She called it the “BJP’s commission”. After the meeting, she almost boasted when she said, “my apprehensions about the Delimitation Commission weren’t misplaced”. 

You were much more trusting, you participated. Is there now a difference between you Mehbooba Mufti?

No, there is no difference.

None at all?

None at all. She wouldn’t have been in the [People’s Alliance for Gupkar Declaration] meeting [on December 21] if there were differences. We were all together and we stood together and we will stand together. 

Let me tell you why I ask this question, because many people say that actually your People’s Alliance for the Gupkar Declaration is already fraying and unravelling. You lost Sajjad Lone in January and speculation is Mehbooba Mufti will be walking out very soon too. 

*laughs*

There are a lot of speculations. Let there be. There are parties in Delhi, the main government, that want to divide us at all levels. Sajjad Lone went, why did he go? Why? 

Tell me.

He says that he promises of the seats that were done, we didn’t get them. Did he look into his own self? I am sure that he was manoeuvered by Delhi. I am quite confident.

You mean the hand of the BJP lies behind Sajjad Lone parting PAGD?

Yes, I am absolutely certain. The two of them were there, are working for them. They are the [BJP’s] B party. I have no objection to making myself absolutely clear on this.

So Sajjad Lone is not an independent politician, he is a proxy for the BJP?

You ask anybody in Kashmir and they will tell you the same thing.

What about Mehbooba Mufti? I will come back to her. People say the reason why she may walk out of the PAGD is that she and your son don’t always see eye to eye. They say the only reason she is there is for Farooq Abdullah’s personality. You are keeping her there.

I am not keeping her there. We all have the compulsion to be together, to defeat this party called the BJP which is dividing India on a communal basis.

Is that compulsion greater than the personality differences between Omar and Mehbooba?

The personal differences may exist. How does it matter? The question here is that India is becoming communal. It was secular and the government is making it communal. They are dividing people – Muslims against Hindus, and all other religions…look at the Christians.

I will come to what they are doing to the country in a moment’s time. Let’s focus for a while, though, on Kashmir and particularly on the PAGD. You mentioned attempts made by the BJP to fracture the PAGD.

Yes, and they will continue to try but they will not succeed.

What sorts of things are they doing? You said that they were behind Sajjad Lone.

Let me tell you. Gulshan Ara, the wife of the former home minister of India, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, at this age, is called by the Enforcement Directorat. What sort of people are they? Pressuring by using all sorts of these methods to force people, their son also… just to make them vacillate.

So you are saying the fact Ara and her son have been contacted by the ED and called for questioning…

And Mehbooba herself.

And this is to put pressure on Mehbooba to opt out of the PAGD?

Yes, they have been trying. They haven’t succeeded up to this day.

Do you think they will succeed?

No, I don’t think so.

She could be vulnerable to pressure?

No, she will not give in. She would rather prefer to die than give in to pressure.

She has been an ally of theirs once upon a time, she may well choose to seek comfort in their security.

That you have to ask her. As far as what I see from my side, she is not going to give in.

You’re confident of that?

I am confident. Absolutely confident.

So no matter how hard the BJP tries to prise her away or to fracture the PAGD, you believe that the PAGD will remain intact?

Anybody who leaves this organisation, I can bet on myself, they will never win unless they rig the election through various agencies. They will never win. People in Kashmir have hate for they are doing in Delhi. There is no love to left for them, very sorry to say that.

You are saying that the PAGD will have the support of the Kashmiri people whenever elections are held?

Yes, full support.

But there wasn’t that much support for the PAGD parties when 2019 happened. Many people said Farooq Abdullah and Omar Abdullah deserved what they got.

Let me tell you, they say a lot of things. What is [the state of the] media today? Does it say the truth? Is there truth on their faces? All of us were [detained in August 2019]. They say nobody protested, not a gun was fired. How will they fire when every household had a soldier standing outside with AK-47 and all the weapons they have, and draconian laws [are imposed], where our people are still in prison on various laws for nothing.

So you are saying to me Farooq Abdullah has the love of the Kashmiri people?

Time will show, time will show this nation.

Are you saying time will show you have it or time will show you don’t, which of the two?

Wait and see. Why are you jumping? Let it come.

But you are confident you will win?

Yes, so long as they don’t rig the bloody machines and they don’t use their other people to vote for them and put people behind in various sections and things.

There is another challenge that you face before the elections happen and that’s the question of statehood and the restoration of statehood. Do you believe that the restoration of statehood should happen before elections or are you happy for elections to be first and statehood to be restored sometime after?

I am not sure what the BJP wants to do but we all have a fear that the BJP will try to do statehood afterwards and keep us like Delhi, Goa, so the control will remain not with the people or the people’s party or the chief minister but the governor. And that we object to.

But then let me ask you, if elections are held before statehood is restored, will the National Conference participate or boycott?

We cannot boycott. A boycott is not our way of life anymore. We have to fight them at every single inch that we have got. We will fight them legally, we’ll fight them by the people. We don’t use guns and stones, we’ll use Gandhi’s method of fighting them till we are alive.

So you will contest the elections even if statehood hasn’t been restored before they are held. That is clear?

I am absolutely clear. Whoever does not want to take part in elections can [leave the PAGD].

One of those is your son. He has publicly said he will not contest elections before statehood is restored.

Well, I don’t know what he will do. That is his job. But I am going to fight, and my party is going to fight.  

Once again I am asking you. You’re confident you are going to win?

Karan, I trust in God and I am sure my people will back us.

Let’s then come to the situation prevailing in the Valley today. As the year ends, there has been a fairly sharp rise in violence, civilian killings have gone up, police killings have gone up, terrorist incidents have gone up. Why is this happening?

The Union home minister, when he diluted Article 370, he said Article 370 is responsible for all these things that have been happening in Kashmir. I want to ask him. Today, we are not in power. They are in power. Have they restored normalcy in Kashmir? Have jobs increased in Kashmir? Have people become “more Indian” than before? Has the violence gone down?

That is what the home minister says, it has. He says there is a remarkable improvement in the security situation.

But look at the figures you have just pointed to me. Is it normal?

So you are saying he is lying?

Well, I mean you can say anything. Ground realities are absolutely different.

Why has Srinagar which used to be, until a few months ago, relatively calm and peaceful suddenly become the epicentre of violence?

Yes. Because they see what is happening in the nation; how division of people is taking place; how lynching is being done; how we are told you cannot eat this, you cannot wear this, you can’t pray here. Don’t you think people realise this? This is not India of Gandhi. This is not India of Nehru. 

So the violence in Srinagar is a direct response to what is happening to Muslims elsewhere in India?

Yes. Not only the Muslims. What about the Christians? What about others? What about the Dalits? They’re Hindus. What’s happening to them? Their daughters are being raped and killed. Is this what India is? Is this India shining?

What, then, is the mood of the people in the Valley as the year ends? Explain that to people, because they haven’t gone to Srinagar and they don’t know. Tell them what do Kashmiris feel?

Unfortunately, they feel whatever is happening is pushing them away from the nation. The nation does not see their pain, their tragedies. That is what is hurting them most. That people think we are hunky-dory and well. I think the time has come when the nation must stand with the people and make them feel that we feel your pain, we feel your tragedies and we are part of you. That is what they want. They don’t want anything else. 

When you say Kashmiris feel they are being pushed away, are you saying they feel rejected?

They do feel rejected. They feel there is nobody for them

More than alienated…rejected?

Yes, absolutely Karan. I am not wrong about it.

Rejection is much worse than alienation. Alienation is what they feel?

They feel they have been left in the corner. And they’re being further pushed to the corner. A volcano is getting ready, remember one thing. There are no Pakistani people coming to fight for us. It is young people who are standing up for themselves. They know they are going to die, but they still stand. Why? Why do they stand?

You tell me.

Because they have no hope, no hope at all. None whatsoever. And in the prime minister’s own words on June 24, when we all met him, he said, “Dil ki doori aur dilli ki doori hum door karenge. (We will reduce the distance – both geographically and in the hearts.)” Where is that doori being reduced? Where is it?

You are saying two very important things. You are saying people feel rejected which is much stronger than feeling alienated, you are saying they see no hope, they feel hopeless and there’s a volcano in Srinagar or in Kashmir…

Yes, inside growing, yet people can’t see it. I am sorry.

…waiting to explode?

One day it will explode and it will explode in a very big way. Let’s not blame any other countries and things like this. It is we, and the nation, who feel that the nation does not see our illnesses and our tragedies that take place every day.

Do Kashmiris feel Indian?

We can’t go to China. We can’t go to Pakistan. We can’t go anywhere else.

Are you saying they feel trapped?

We are part of this nation. We want this nation to realise we are part of this nation and we want the nation to bleed for us. They should feel our pain. They should feel that we joined India – Gandhi’s India, not Godse’s India.

How do they look upon the Modi government? What do they think of Modi? 

I don’t want to comment on Modi. Please forgive me.

But you really mean when you say the Kashmiris feel rejected and hopeless and there is a volcano – that’s a warning to the country. There is a volcano that will explode?

I am warning them. How long do you think you will be dominated by the troops, by the police, by the BSF, by the armed forces? How long?

Are you saying civil war could happen?

Don’t push me to the wall Karan. I have already seen enough suffering and it is beyond me to see any more suffering. 

That silence, that deliberate silence…

I see how my people are suffering every day. Every day they are suffering. There is not a day when they go without suffering. My media cannot write honestly. You open any paper, lieutenant governor on every page, DC, police general… no true news anywhere. Because if he writes the true news, he will be in the police station and he will be chargesheeted and he will be in jail.

But you are saying something even more important now – if the media can’t see the truth and can’t convey the truth you’re suggesting the rest of India has turned its back on Kashmir?

It has. It is how we feel. We feel they don’t see our… they feel we probably are Muslims, it does not matter and they can go to hell.

Kashmiris believe they are second class citizens and being Muslims makes them, perhaps, third class?

Third or fourth or fifth, I don’t know. But we feel nobody is bleeding for us.

Tell me something, God forbid this volcano should ever explode. But if that happens, if it explodes, what will the situation be?

I hope it doesn’t come to that. But if it does, nothing will survive. It’ll take India with it.

So the very future of India could be at stake?

Yes, yes, yes.

I’ll change the subject there because I think what you said is so powerful that people need to think very carefully about what you said, I won’t say suggested, what you said – the future of the country is at stake. If that volcano explodes, there will be nothing left. People feel not just alienated, they feel rejected, they feel India has turned their back on them, there is no hope. I want people to think very carefully about that. Because I think it is probably the most powerful image of the boiling nature of the situation in Kashmir.

I will come instead now to national politics. I want to talk to you about something I know you are also involved in as a national politician, not as a Kashmiri alone. I want to talk to you about opposition unity versus the BJP. I know you are involved in this. The Trinamool Conrgess can’t get on with the Congress party, the Congress party can’t get on with the Aam Aadmi Party, Trinamool can’t get on with the Left, the Bahujan Samaj can’t get on with the Samajwadi Party. And Mamata Banerjee has openly said that in fact, the UPA does not exist. So is opposition unity a contradiction? Is it the wrong term altogether?

Karan, if politicians do not realise that India is in danger and their ego is going to eat them up, this nation and the people who will come after us will never forgive us for what we are doing. It is essential that all of us must unite to fight the divisive and communal forces. If we do not, then the people that are going to come will never forgive us ever. And we will all be in hell, burning.

Is it ego that is the problem?

I do not know. I don’t understand what is there. Why can’t we get together? Why?

You tell me.

I can’t understand. Because I tell them. I tell them openly, let’s get together. Who becomes the prime minister tomorrow, we can all sit down and discuss and arrive at a decision of who is going to be the leader.

You are close friends with the Gandhis, you are very close to Mamata Banerjee. When you say this to them, what do they say?

It’s not the question of what I say to them. It’s a question of if we have to save the nation, we must get together. And this is the time we must get together now, not tomorrow!

But they are not getting together.

They have to. If they want to save this country. I tell them through you, get together! We may have made mistakes here and there. Let’s forget them for the present. Let’s concentrate on the present. We will fight those battles later.

But Abdullah it’s not just ego that’s separating the Mamata Banerjees from the Gandhis, you also have to  ensure…

See, let me tell you how I feel about it.

Tell me.

I think Mamata feels hurt that the Congress didn’t support her against the BJP [in West Bengal]. She was fighting the BJP, she was fighting communal forces. This is how I feel. I do not know, I have not met her. I may be wrong. But I tell them, the time has come. Forgive and forget, and save India. Save the people of this nation. The Muslims, the Christians, the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Jains, the Zoroastrians, everyone who lives in this country. Let’s work for them. To hell with my party and any other party! Let’s get together. How long are we going to suffer and see our people suffer? How long? They haven’t got jobs, they haven’t got food to eat. Everything has gone sky high. Look at the gas price, look at the prices of the vegetables and the dal and oil, that our mothers and sisters have to go and take oil from those diyas in Varanasi so that they can cook their meal.

Karan, how long are we going to see this tragedy? How long? How long? It’s not God who is in danger. It is not Ram who is in danger, it is not Allah who is in danger, it is the people of this nation who are in danger. How long? How does it matter whether you’re Hindu or I am Muslim? We go to the same place. We die the same way. How does it matter?

Karan, how long are we going to fight between ourselves and then think of the nation? It’s too long. Forget, forgive and let’s go on. Please let’s work together and save this nation.

The passion and emotion in your answer is going to be deeply moving. But I want to still ask you this, how do you view the real possibility of a third Modi victory in 2024? Because if the people you are talking about don’t come together, and at the moment Abdullah they are showing no signs of coming together, then that third victory is a likelihood. So how do you view that third victory?

I pray to Allah, who is the most powerful, that maybe he will find a way for us. That we will in the end come together. Otherwise, the future of this nation is in danger.

The last issue I want to touch with you is about what’s happening to Hindus and Muslims in this country. They are getting polarised, they are getting divided and it seems to be the deliberate electoral strategy of the BJP. They think they get election benefit out of separating and dividing and sadly, no other political party is pushing back. How do you view this?

The tragedy is that Chanakya said, “Divide and win.” They are working on the same theory. It has been done in the past also.

But they are succeeding.

They have done it in the past also. They did it. They divided people to win votes. Why was it that a Muslim leader had to only go to a Muslim place and speak to the party, and a Hindu leader had to go only to the Hindu place and speak to the party? Why was it not that the Hindu leader would go to the Muslims and the Muslim leader would go to the Hindus so that Hindus and Muslims understood each other? Does any religion teach that you rape, you kill, you sell at higher prices or you sell less than what it should be? Does it say that you should loot? No religion teaches you bad. It is not religion that is bad. It is we who are bad, who have used religion for our purposes, for us, ourselves.

But Abdullah, look at the way BJP politicians deliberately, publicly taunt Muslims. “Abba jaan”. Yogi Adityanath has made a career out of demonising and taunting Muslims. Look at what is happening at the hands of vigilantes in Gurgaon. Namaz can’t be said, Muslims can’t run food stalls in Gujarat cities, they can’t sell vegetables and bangles in UP and several sections of the press spew communal violence.

Don’t you see this affects all of us? There is a silent majority of this country who are not communal but they don’t speak, they don’t come forward. That’s the tragedy of this nation. They win with 37% [of the vote]. Where is the rest of the vote?

In which case, what does it feel like to be a Muslim in India today? Taunted by the BJP, attacked by vigilantes, the silent majority you believe supports you but keeps silent, what does it feel like to be a Muslim in Modi’s India?

It feels terrible. But that Muslim who has faith in Allah is not afraid. I am not afraid. Because I know death is not in their hands. “I am the one who will give you honour and I am the one who will give you dishonour. I am the one who feeds you, I will feed you. Hold my rope strongly.” I hold Allah’s rope strongly, that he will take us out of this tragedy. Moses will be born. There was the Pharaoh, who called himself God, built his own temples, used Bani Israel who believed in Allah. And tortured, like Muslims are being tortured today. He sent Moses. He was born to a Muslim family. The Pharoah’s wife saw this child’s cry when he was killing all the children because he had told him that this boy will be born who will destroy you. In that very house, Moses grew. And when he grew God sent him back and said “Moses, now, go. Tell him that I am God, you are not God.” And when he didn’t listen, what did Moses do? He said Moses, take your people away. If you see in front and he said now put your stick before the sea, sea divided. And the Pharoah and all his army blew.

God gave Moses the vision to take the people to another country.

He will create another Moses, you be sure about it. He will come. He will save this nation, I am telling you. It will happen. I am confident.

But it will happen in this nation, he won’t take people away?

Not the question of taking away. It will happen in this nation. In this nation, people will wake up.

When?

Soon, soon. I have faith in Allah. And I am sure. 

That is what you are really saying, that at the end of the day, the security Muslims have as they are taunted, as they are reduced to second class citizens…

To those Muslims I will say, through your channel, trust in Allah and follow his principles, follow his methods. Do not create hate. They may do anything to you. Don’t have hate for them because they are misguided. Do not hate them. But pray to God and say, “Allah, please guide them rightly. Please bring them to the path of righteousness. And that is what we hope.”

All right Abdullah, God is your hope.

Yes, and people are my hope. Both.

Thank you very much for this very powerful interview. Take care, stay safe.