Full Transcript | There is Fear in the BJP and the RSS; They Don’t Know How to Manage the Situation

After the Jantar Mantar protests, Narendra Modi and RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat tried to reach out to Gen Z. But these efforts have not been successful because “Gen Z knows that the RSS is part of the problem,” said Dhirendra K. Jha, journalist and author of several books on Hindutva and the RSS. “Why is Gen Z hesitating? Because RSS is trying to capture institutions, RSS is trying to capture whatever jobs are created,” he told Sidharth Bhatia, The Wire’s founding editor and host of The Wire Talks. Analysing the RSS, he said it thrived on “ambiguity" and controlled the system through the BJP, Modi and Amit Shah. “This is unnatural in a democracy, but after the protests, if you talk to anybody in the RSS or the BJP, you will feel this sense of fear. They don’t know how to manage the situation," he said, "They have no other tool left with them other than using fear, using manipulation, rigging the election, using all the institutions to remain in power. And if people don't fear, then perhaps they may not be able to use those institutions." Read the full transcript of the conversation below. It has been edited lightly for clarity.

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Sidharth Bhatia: Hello and welcome to The Wire Talks. I'm Sidharth Bhatia. The massive Gen Z protests at Jantar Mantar and other parts of India seem to have rattled the BJP and the larger Sangh parivar. The government reacted, on the one hand, by lathi charges and pellet guns to subdue protesters, but that did not work and the Education Minister Dharmendra Pradhan had to eventually quit, which was their main demand.

On the other hand, Modi for his part immediately reached out to the youth via Instagram, making youth-friendly reels and then the RSS chief Bhagwat said the youth was not "anti-national." He met with 2,000 of them in Mumbai as part of his outreach programme, saying the era of unquestioned obedience was over and that the older generation must have a dialogue with the young.

All of this is quite new for the RSS which has emphasised Indian traditional values all along, which include the importance of the patriarchal elder in the family. Are the RSS and BJP changing? Have they woken up to new realities because of political reasons or is the RSS sending out a message to the young and also to the BJP?

I invited Dhirendra K. Jha to discuss these and other questions. Jha is a veteran journalist who is known for his impeccable research on the RSS and Hindutva. He is the author of many books such as Shadow Armies: Fringe Organisations and Foot Soldiers of Hindutva, Ascetic Games: Sadhus, Akharas and the Making of the Hindu Vote and Golwalkar: The Myth Behind the Man, The Man Behind the Machine. Dhirendra K. Jha, welcome to The Wire Talks.

Dhirendra K. Jha: Thank you Sidharth. Thank you for inviting me to your show.

Sidharth Bhatia: You've written so many books about Hindutva and the RSS. Why is so little known about this organisation?

Dhirendra K. Jha: Well, this organisation has for long worked as a secret organisation, a ghost organisation. Still, it is not registered. You see, it has tried to use ambiguity so much in the past in order to cover its track record, people have come to know about it, but not in a complete manner. A major part of it has remained hidden for long.

Sidharth Bhatia: So, are you saying it thrives on keeping everything vague, is it part of the entire strategy to always remain a little vague? Because look at some of the facts: they are not registered, they do not reveal their membership, as they claim that they are a very large organisation.

Dhirendra K. Jha: Yes, the RSS has too many things to hide and, in fact, till Gandhi's assassination, it didn't even have a constitution of its own. After the assassination, it was forced to adopt a constitution and define itself. Even after adopting the constitution, even after defining itself, it didn’t follow the spirit of the constitution that it adopted.

Because the major part of it operates in shadows, it has somehow tried to manage to keep itself out of the public discourse till late 1980s. That is because the government of the day started diluting its commitment to secularism. That was the time when we saw the RSS showing up to the poor, using religion to polarise society and distort politics. From there, we see a process of the RSS coming to power through its electoral wing the BJP. So that first happened when Atal Vajpayee became prime minister, leading a coalition government, and then in 2014 when the BJP, for the first time, got absolute majority.

Now, after 2004, it has come out totally in the open and I don't see even attempts to hide itself or tell people that it is not in politics, which it used to do earlier. That is why ambiguity and hypocrisy have remained the core components of the RSS's strategy. The reason, to me, is that the RSS, of course, hates Muslims, hates minorities, but it doesn't actually care about the Hindu life outside the sphere of Brahminism. It can't use this term. It  can't say that it doesn't care the Hindu life outside the sphere of Brahminism. So it uses the term Hindu in order to gain some kind of legitimacy among Hindus, and it lacks that internal legitimacy.

Sidharth Bhatia: Recently there was a minister in Karnataka who said "Register yourself, show who you are" and that came and went. Question one: why is it not even registered? And question two: where does it get its finances from?

Look at the building that they made for themselves in Delhi. It's a grand building. They always had a place in Nagpur. Why wouldn't they register themselves? The second thing is, firstly, you cannot build structures without registration. But if you're not registered and somebody wants to donate, it is known that they get money from overseas. Where does it go? What would an account say? What would a registration say? How does this process work ?

Dhirendra K. Jha: As for your first question, why is it not registered? The answer is simple. There is no provision in the constitution in any democratic country for a private paramilitary organisation. You can be a society, a political party, a trust, a company, but the constitution does not provide for a private paramilitary organisation. It is something that has to be owned by the state only. They know it, and that’s why they have done everything to stay away from registering themselves.

If they register themselves as a society, as an NGO – the largest NGO of the world  as Modi called it during one of his speeches – then no NGO anywhere in the world is allowed to do what these people are doing.

Look at what they are doing in their brown pants and white shirts. In parks where they organise shakas and drills, in streets where they organise marches and call them path sanchalan, and in their officers' training camps where they do all kinds of militaristic performances. These things are not allowed in any NGO. So they know this and that is why they are not coming forward to register themselves.

The second thing is that they have properties all across the country, but they are receiving funds. Their properties are owned not by the RSS on paper. They are owned by a series of trusts and NGOs. So in essence, the RSS exists as a ghost organisation. It controls all the properties but it won't appear on paper.

Sidharth Bhatia: Would you say that the RSS and the BJP operate in tandem or completely independently?

Dhirendra K. Jha: In the last 12 years, all the cover is gone. Everything has come out in the open. BJP is a part of the sangh parivar and the RSS is the mothership. BJP is the electoral wing and this mothership has so many other wings as well. So everything that any wing does is part of the overall effort of the sangh parivar. So they cannot operate independently.

Narendra Modi is part and parcel of the RSS. He was a pracharak and if you read the ideological texts of the RSS, you will find that he's only following those. So there is no difference between the BJP and the RSS. The difference is shown to people who are naïve, who are not able to understand or see them in totality as part of the same machine. So the BJP is carrying out the objective of the RSS itself.

Sidharth Bhatia: So on every step they work in tandem or would you say that sometimes differences are there?

Dhirendra K. Jha: See differences do happen, because the idea of the RSS is against the Constitution of India and a political party has to function as per the constitution. So sometimes, during the functioning of the government these differences do come up but then these are quickly resolved and once again they start working together. That is how they have been working.

There have been occasions when they have serious differences. For example, when Vajpayee was prime minister, we saw serious differences between the RSS and him and those differences emerged because Vajpayee didn't have an absolute majority. Because he was leading a coalition government and had to listen to the constitution as well. You know he couldn't have listened to the RSS.

So, only when they are not in complete majority do they have differences. When they are in majority, then differences may happen on the basis of individuals, but these differences are not institutional. For example, just before 2014 election when Modi was selected by the BJP as the PM candidate, there were differences between the two because they were trying hard to make RSS work as subservient course, which the RSS was not used to. There were differences between Modi and Bhagwat. In fact, Ram Madhav, as a representative of Bhagwat, had even gone to Arun Shourie and talked to him to resolve the issue, to talk to Modi and to tell him that “look, after all, Mohan Bhagwat  is our sanghchalak, pay some respect to him.” 

But Modi being Modi, wanted to control everything. So, Bhagwat ultimately agreed to play the secondary role.

Sidharth Bhatia:  Dhirendra, do you think that the protests in Delhi and the rest of the country have shaken the sangh parivar?

Dhirendra K. Jha: Yes, because for the first time in the last 12 years, we saw that both the RSS as well as the Modi led government are finding it difficult to believe that people do not operate well when they have completely come out of their grip. Unlike in the past, they are talking openly and doing everything openly. That is why we see Bhagwat coming out to pacify this young generation.

In that programme, Bhagwat was not able to respond to the questions in a manner that would have satisfied Gen Z, because what Bhagwat  is trying to do is some kind of superficial balancing. He can't go against the government. He can't promise the changes beyond a point because he knows that his RSS is part of the problem.

You see, because why are Gen Z hesitating? The reason is that the RSS is trying to capture everything. The RSS is trying to capture institutions, whatever jobs are created. So Bhagwat knows that he and his organisation are at the heart of the problem. That is why whatever drama he sought to do while interacting with Gen Z was understood properly by youngsters, and they are no longer afraid now. That is why these people are so much rattled.

Sidharth Bhatia:  I presume what you're trying to say is that the young do not have any more fear left. And not just that, they have seen through it. Firstly, they have seen that the government has not been able to provide jobs and they have also seen that what the RSS has been doing is simply not acceptable. Is that a correct analysis?

Dhirendra K. Jha: Yes, precisely. And they also know that RSS is basically part of the problem. It is not just that the government is not being able to deliver. The government is not being able to deliver simply because RSS is eating out what was due to the young generation.

Sidharth Bhatia: Also, things like changing history books, I think the young do not like that beyond a point – that you take any history book, any book, and try to preach the so-called traditional values which are completely at odds with what the modern young want.

Dhirendra K. Jha: This connection that he tried to make, do you think it will work?  It can't work, because number one, what the RSS is talking about, what Bhagwat is talking about, is something totally different from what our youngsters are thinking. That is the one thing: there is a total disconnect between the two.

The second thing is that youngsters do know very well that the RSS is part of the problem. Bhagwat is part of the problem. He can't be part of the solution. You see that is why his effort to reach out to youngsters couldn’t pay any dividend either to the RSS or to the BJP.

Sidharth Bhatia: You know, he said that "The young are not antinational. we should talk to them and have dialogue." At the same time, the government was shooting at them with pellet guns and tear gas. Do you see any implicit kind of criticism of the government policy? Not direct, but he's trying to say that the way the government reacted was not correct. Do you think that there is that somewhere or not at all?

Dhirendra K. Jha: See, ambiguity is very much part of the sangh parivar's system and strategy. So they always play this good-cop, bad-cop game, but their objective remains the same. That is why whenever there is a problem in the governance, the RSS will come in to pacify the angry crowd. Whenever RSS is found out or caught, the government would come forward to rescue it from the crisis.

So whatever Bhagwat is saying is meaningless. That is why I was saying that it is meaningless, simply because he knows that he is very much part of the problem, because RSS is trying to take over the entire employment field and the entire educational field. This problem has arisen. That is why our youngsters are so much agitated because they know that this man – Bhagwat – has no answer to the real problems which youngsters are facing. You see, that is not going to mean much.

Sidharth Bhatia:  There have been times after the poor results of 2024, when they were expecting 400 seats and only got 240. Out of the blue, Bhagwat had said that it was important to bring peace to Manipur, which had been burning for a year. Modi had said nothing about Manipur. So was it a reminder or was it just the same good-cop, bad-cop routine?

Dhirendra K. Jha: See that is another thing that the RSS always plays. Whenever it fears a crisis, it starts behaving as if it has nothing to do with what the government is doing, just as Bhagwat is trying to reach out to Gen Z now.

After the last elections, the BJP got around 240, quite less than the halfway mark. That was the time when the fear became dominant in the minds of Bhagwat and his colleagues. At that time also, they got panicked and started talking about Manipur. Manipur was burning since early 2023, right? But it was mid of June 2024 that Bhagwat spoke his first words on Manipur.

He remained silent all through. When it seemed that the BJP government would not be stable enough or might not be able to continue for long because of the election results, he started saying this to save his skin.

Whenever it has absolute majority and is confident of being in power through its electoral outfit, it uses a different language. But whenever it is on shaky ground and knows that power may go out of their hands, the RSS starts to say something to save itself.

Sidharth Bhatia: You know, just before the elections, the BJP chief at that time, J.P. Nadda, had said we don't need the RSS anymore to help us win elections. That was kind of an implicit dig from the BJP side or was seen like that. How do you see that?  

Dhirendra K. Jha: I don't look at it that way. To me, it was not a dig on the BJP. To me, it was continuation of the same ambiguity that defines both the BJP and the RSS  and is used deliberately to fool ordinary citizens of the country. RSS has everything to do with politics. Everybody knows how RSS has been involved in management of discourses during elections and still they are trying to claim that they are apolitical, that they are a cultural organisation. They have tried to maintain this image all through, that’s why they have been using ambiguity all through. What Nadda said at that time was nothing, just another reflection of this entire exercise.

Sidharth Bhatia: Now, is there genuine worry because of many things that have happened? The Lok Sabha numbers, of course, but they've been trying to win state elections and gather. But I think these protests have also done something more than just take away the fear. The protests have perhaps given a message to people that we don't have to necessarily think of these people only during the elections. The 2029 elections are still a few years away, but there are UP elections, which are critical.

Is there a fear growing within the RSS and the BJP that their aim of Hindu Rashtra is now not going to be very easy? Do you think that fear is growing?

Dhirendra K. Jha: Of course, that fear is definitely there. In fact, there is a reflection of this in the organisation of the BJP. They have removed Amit Malviya and have brought in a new guy, but definitely they are trying to cope with this.

In politics, only one side can remain in fear. The moment that side stops fearing, then  the other side has to naturally go into fear. That is what happens when fear is used as a tool in politics. They are afraid of all kinds of things.

They know that their control on the system of the government was not very normal, because unlike other parties, RSS controls the system through the BJP, Modi and Shah. It is so unnatural in a democratic setup. The constitution does not allow that. That is why they fear that if power goes out of their hand, many things may happen, it is very palpable everywhere. If you talk to anybody in the RSS or in the BJP, you will feel this sense of fear there.

The problem is they have reached a point where they don't know how to manage the situation. They have no other tool left with them other than using fear and manipulation, rigging the elections and using institutions to remain in power, and if the people don't fear, then perhaps they may not be able to use those institutions to remain in power. Because if people don't fear, they may not be willing to take on the BJP government.

Sidharth Bhatia: Do you think sooner or later these institutions, for example the bureaucracy and others, will start thinking to themselves that they don't have to listen to everything that is said and take some independent stand. Do you feel that is imminent? Is it going to happen slowly?

Dhirendra K. Jha: I don't know what will happen, but yes, as of now I can feel that. Bureaucracy will no longer listen to the government in the manner it used to do in the past. It will grow further or the government will be able to recapture the bureaucracy and mould it in the manner that suits it. It is something that we will have to wait and see.

Sidharth Bhatia: Let me give you a hypothetical situation. The bureaucracy we talked about and other institutions – the election commission, the judiciary that is capable of taking independent stands, and sometimes does, and the media which has lost all credibility. Do you think that slowly, if this grows, alternate arrangements like alternate media and younger generations with growing discontent who are, after all, voters, listen to alternative media?

So I'm just painting this larger picture, and if this happens, it is not going to be the smooth sailing that they had imagined. Remember that 240 remains 240. You can't suddenly change 240 to 290 overnight. It'll take another few years. Whichever parties are supporting them, the breakaway Trinamool Congress and all, even so there is no guarantee that these coalition supporters or partners will remain on the side.

We journalists like to make predictions. Do you see very different things in the coming months and years?

Dhirendra K. Jha: Well, I would not like to make any prediction, but I do see that the entire NDA – number one; government's control over institutions –number two; cohesion within the BJP – number three; and the relationship between the BJP and other partners of the sangh parivar, all have got destabilised.

They are not as united as they used to be before the Jantar Mantar episode. Just see what was happening before this session. All the parties were being broken, MPs were forced to leave their parties, the BJP was almost close to reaching the two-thirds mark, and the BJP had lined up a series of bills which would have crippled India's democracy.

From there Jantar Mantar happened and everything has just changed. Just look at the way Shah is talking to two news agencies PTI and ANI on the penultimate day of this session. He didn't even have the courage to face the full media because he knew that these agencies won't ask any questions. Forget about alternate media. Alternate media is anyway something that this dispensation won't like to face. But even the major part of the legacy media was kept out of that briefing. So everything has just changed. That is why I'm saying that, as of now, things are not very normal. Their grip over institutions, political parties and allied bodies have become very weak. If this process continues, how far will it go?

Sidharth Bhatia: Well, the RSS must have noticed this right? RSS will also be coming up with ideas.

Dhirendra K. Jha: That is why Bhagwat actually came out to talk to people and youngsters. Whenever the RSS sees that power may go out of the hands of the BJP it starts behaving differently. It starts playing games to save its skin. It doesn't want to face the opposition force.

Sidharth Bhatia: What do you think Dhirendra, they've got any new ideas or games left apart from polarisation? 

Dhirendra K. Jha:  Coercion is another tool that these people may use. I don't think polarisation is going to work beyond a point now, because this was a protest mainly of the majority committee, unlike the anti-CAA protests, in which Hindus mostly stayed away and Muslims were left to fight for their own for their rights. In this protest, they are facing challenges from those people who they claim to represent. That is why I don't think polarisation can still be used beyond a point, but coercion can still be used.

Sidharth Bhatia: Yes, coercion is working because social media is being ordered to take down posts. I read somewhere that a post is being taken down around one a minute but I think social media is a very difficult animal to control. Unless you tell Meta, Twitter and everyone else to get out of this country, that's not going to be easy.

But anyway, as I was just saying, the coming months and years will see major elections. Mrs. Vasundhara Raje has been brought in. She was out in the cold. She's been brought in because Rajasthan elections are coming up. So I think this reshuffle is very significant, because it signifies what the planning is going to be.

Anyway, Dhirendra thank you very much. I'm sure you're working on three or more books. We all look forward to them. The last few days, I was reading your Shadow Armies book. It was very fascinating and now I will pick up a couple of others to read. Thank you very much for this talk.

That was Dhirendra K. Jha, author of many books about Hindutva and the RSS. He's a regular contributor to various publications on what the Hindutva brigade has been and is up to. We'll be back again next week with another guest. Till then, from Sidharth Bhatia and the rest of The Wire Talks team. Goodbye.

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