In the first episode of ‘Out of the Park,’ The Wire‘s special show on the cricket World Cup, veteran sports writer Sharda Ugra begins the innings with Gideon Haigh. The two talk about the sport, the fanfare, the festival and the politics implicit in all of it in a lively and spirited chat.
Below is the full text of the chat.
Sharda Ugra: I am totally delighted to be welcoming today our first guest on Out of the Park – Gideon Haigh. Everyone knows Gideon Haigh in cricket. He’s a friend, he’s now in Melbourne. The Grand Final has just finished, his team wasn’t there, I don’t think. Welcome Gideon, great to have you here at Out of the Park. You are an opener and like Sehwag, we think you’re gonna play our shots today. So, so good to have you here.
Gideon Haigh: My club mates would laugh at me being associated with anything called ‘Out of the Park‘ because over the weekend I’m going to be playing my 350th game in the club and I think I’ve probably hit about 10 sixes in all that time. But the great thing is I remember all of them!
SU: Gideon, do you know that V.V.S. Laxman has hit literally under three or four sixes in his Test career so that’s the kind of quality that you’re matching up with!
GH: Bradman only hit six and he didn’t hit a six until the Bodyline series which was actually a sign that his game wasn’t in the best shape, that he wasn’t geared to hitting sixes and nor am I. That’s probably the only thing that I have in common with him.
SU: Great to have you here, Gideon. We are just on the verge of this massive extravaganza, or as Suresh Menon called it in his column – “a cricketing sort of a rally” – a pre-election rally for the ruling government. We’ll get into that a little bit later. What does this Cricket World Cup look like to you from Australia and what are your general feelings about how it’s going to go? I’ll ask you some questions about Australia as well.
GH: Well, the World Cup has had an unusual status, hasn’t it, really? For the last 10 or 15 years…it’s a form of the game that a lot of people have predicted will decline and crumble. Yet it’s as close as we have to a long-term world championship. You know, dating back to 1975 to the West Indies winning that was a kind of herald of their ascendancy in international cricket, the 1983 World Cup was a herald of India’s discovery of the One Day International and their emergence as a world power. So it’s actually had great significance, as a coronation ceremony for powerful teams.
In some ways even though the bilateral ODI as a format is in decline, the World Cup still has cut through. The rest of the cricket world has to stop and the cricket world very seldom stops these days for anything but premium events such as the IPL. So yeah, I think you shouldn’t read into the surrounding malaise in ODI cricket or any sort of decline in the World Cup’s appeal. In some respects, that’s simply because there’s just so much cricket nowadays and that teams very very seldom play their full-strength 11s. They’re often resting players, players are missing out through injury or they’re being saved for more important series and they’re saving themselves to play International T20.
But the players will be available, the best 11s, for this World Cup, even though there may be some uncertainty about those best 11s because certain individual players haven’t had enough recent game time.
SU: Speaking of game time, I was just checking odds, which I normally don’t. Before world cups of any kind, you look and see okay who’s the favourite? What is the betting world saying? The sequence is quite simply: India favourites, England second, Australia third, Pakistan fourth and so on. I just wanted to ask you about Australia. They’ve played very few One Day Internationals this year. When they came into this One Day tournament, they played the white ball series against India recently when they had come; they just played nine. They played the fewest amongst all the countries. So what’s happening there? I mean I know there are injuries and we’re hearing all kinds of stories. They had a good game the other day but it was against the Netherlands, which is a considerably weaker team. What’s the buzz like in Australia? What are people saying? What does it look like? Australia is the biggest World Cup nation in cricket, with five wins! Boring, but yeah.
GH: Yeah, well of course, we had an ODI series cancelled in South Africa earlier this year because the South African Board wanted its players to be available for its new domestic T20. So, it’s not as much as we’d planned on having. We’ve had an Ashes series this year for which players have been protected. You know, to us, it’s very, very important how we do in the Ashes. Every Ashes year, everything else falls into secondary importance. I think we’ve got a vague idea about our best 11, maybe not for Indian conditions. We’d probably play a different best 11 in Australia. What I would say is the three favourites are the three biggest cricket economies in the world.
God is on the side of the big battalions, India most of all. And India, of course, are at home and of course those are the countries that tend to hog the hosting rights for ICC events. They place themselves in a position of favouritism. These are economically driven decisions or geopolitically driven decisions but they have real-world cricket outcomes. In that, really, you often enter these tournaments thinking that only one of three teams can win.
SU: It’s a rare cricket conversation in which you’ll hear the words geopolitical and that is because it’s Gideon, who has a vast range of interests and skills in writing. I believe Gideon, your newest book is out. I think you should tell us a little bit about it before we go back to cricket because I’m just astonished at the range of things that you write about. The prolific nature of your books is one thing but the range of subjects that you cover is extraordinary. So tell us about the new book.
GH: So the new one is The Girl in the Cabin 350. It’s a true crime book. It’s based on the disappearance of a young woman on an ocean liner in 1949, the story of which I became aware of last year. I found it very fascinating. I was intensely curious about it and of course, got to a point where you go, ‘Well, the only way I’m going to find out more about this is if I write a book.’ So that tends to be what I do. It’s a niche publication. It’s one that I’ve published myself, so it’s only for sale from my kitchen table but it’s a lot of fun. It’s seriously interesting. It’s a period in Australian history that I find very, very fascinating; 10 years after the World War II and before the advent of television when a lot was happening in Australia. There are a lot of people out on the streets doing things; it’s quite a busy society. It’s not as conservative and stale as we sometimes think and outlandish things happened. A young woman disappearing on an ocean liner indicates that the world that she inhabited and the people that she fraternised with and the society of which she was part, is intensely interesting. Like all crimes, like all terrible mishaps, it’s an aperture through which to study the relevant society.
That’s what really interests me about these things. I’m not particularly drawn to violence, I’m not particularly drawn to scandal but I am interested in social relations and the shape of society and social attitudes. Often a crime or an accident is a way of accessing them and reassessing them. All of a sudden everything is aligned in a certain way and you can look through the keyhole and see the society as it would not normally be accessible. Anyway, back to cricket, shall we?
SU: I just have to say, has Netflix reached out? Netflix had better reach out! Everything is now on the OTT series, waiting to be hacked. So self-publishing might be fine but all the power is in your hand to negotiate with Netflix or whoever comes calling.
Anyhow back to cricket like you said. Gideon, this World Cup, what is it looking like to you? Everyone here is now calling this as much a Cricket World Cup as cricket will happen and it’ll be great but it’s also a political World Cup. You wrote this article for The Wire, one of the few people who wrote it and wrote it freely about the Narendra Modi Stadium which is now the centre of Indian cricket and therefore the centre of world cricket. How do you see this playing out politically? Do you see it playing out as it is? What does your general gut feel about it or are we just overreacting?
Also read: Watching Cricket – Now a Vehicle for the Political Elite – at the Narendra Modi Stadium
GH: No. It was a dry run for what we’re about to see. You’ve got a hint of the way in which the BJP is going to harness the power and the symbolism of cricket to its electoral advantage. Personally, that episode earlier this year was embarrassing to me, as an Australian, to see my Prime Minister being used as a bit of scenery for the projection of a particularly ugly personality cult. The egotism, the monumental egotism, of Narendra Modi being felicitated, basically by Narendra Modi’s cronies in the stadium bearing his name in front of a selected audience, of mostly supporters, was as egregious and as offensive as it sounds. It really did look kind of like, you know, the 1936 Olympics. The infamous memory and it’s just going to be worsened and more systematic, more intensive and more cynical than ever before. We can’t turn aside from that. I mean, you say that I that I wrote the piece. It was a pretty simple piece for me to write because to me it was just blindingly bloody obvious and if we didn’t write it, then we were just being craven enablers of this ugly spectacle. But I understand that it’s much more difficult to write from India. In fact, it’s probably one of the reasons why I wrote it because I can write it. In India, it’s much more problematic.
SU: When you’re seeing this, I mean, we are just looking at a stadium and a ground but you’ve got all these other venues that are staging the event. Is that how you see the shadow of this will present itself over and over again? Or on the matches certainly where India plays? They’re the one team that is playing in different venues everywhere. A lot of teams are playing two games, they’re sort of pretty steady at the time. Is that something you’ll see play out to that extent you think?
GH: Well, it’s pretty obvious at Modi Stadium and I think as you put it quite nicely in Caravan recently. Modi Stadium is a kind of metaphor for the BJP’s inroads into the BCCI and the dark heart of Indian cricket. You know, it’s a huge statement. It’s a massive display of egocentricity by Modi to put his name to it. For the Gujarat Cricket Association to have colluded in it is both ludicrous and completely predictable. The ground itself is really sort of noteworthy for nothing other than scale. It’s not a particularly interesting ground, it’s not a particularly well-equipped ground, it’s not an easy ground to get in and out of, it’s not user friendly, it’s not crowd friendly. It’s really just a monument to one man. If Indian cricket wants to be that way then that’s fine but, I don’t know, it doesn’t just sit well with me. And I don’t think it should sit well with cricket supporters more generally.
Also read: Women’s Cricket Is Rife With Stories of Sexual Harassment. What Is the BCCI Doing?
SU: Can I ask you just another question that we get back to cricket, cricket? People will say: talk about the game. Would there have been a possibility of say the big countries, like the big banks of the game, relatively compared to the rest of the world outside, other than India, Australia, and England, to be able to stand up to this?
Particularly at the global level to stand up to the BCCI and push back a little bit, you think? Because the ICC now appears to be completely… Hindi phrases are coming in my head which will make no sense to you but the ICC company appears to have given up completely and said do whatever you want. You don’t even have to follow any rules of what the schedule is for these big tournaments. And that’s the way we are going to go and it’s a big contrast from what happened in 2011, considerable contrast. But there seems to be no pushback from those that can push back. That’s what my question is to you and then I promise you we’ll get back to cricket.
GH: Well, the most obvious manifestation of that is that
Actually, people do mention it but they do so with an ironic laugh. It is the great exception because India makes up its own rules. Now was it possible for immune England and Australia to exercise some kind of influence? Yeah, it probably was, 10 years ago but they completely funked the opportunity that existed to create independent, standalone governance for the ICC because it was in the interests of England and Australia or so they thought at the time, for governance to be weak, for for the system to be dysfunctional, so that they could subvert it. So, they’re basically victims of their own cynicism. 10 years ago the big three was the first manifestation of that. The subsequent rejigging of the financial model in 2017 was a [unclear/inaudible] and now we’re kind of stuck with it. It’s like Barbie. Have you seen Barbie?
SU: Not yet.
GH: Barbie says, “Do any of you think about dying because that’s really what I’m thinking about when I look around.”
I think anyone in international cricket is thinking about dying because that’s basically what we’re faced with: the steady eclipse of international cricket at the expense of a bloated private sector-owned, geopolitically infected cricket spectacle. Look at what we’re in right now, as Kingsley Amis said “More will mean worse.”
SU: More will mean worse – we’re not going to go into this because we’ll never stop talking about this. Gideon both of us have many views on the subject. Let’s get back to the World Cup at the discussion. Is it never going to be possible for there to be a Sri Lanka Victory or you know a completely outsider kind of victory anymore at the World Cup? Because either the game has professionalised to the degree that you’ve got all the computer guys in or whatever. Maybe the game is just better run in these countries because in Indian cricket, certainly the Indian team is best looked after to the extent of damage to everybody else down the line. But is that ever gonna happen that you’ll get like a freak, surprise winner out of nowhere? You know, like India in ’83, like Pakistan in ’92, like Sri Lanka in ’96 and then we stopped.
GH: Look, it is possible. It is possible for a few reasons. I mean, for a start, there are 11 people in every team. Effectively it’s 1.3 billion versus 25 million when India plays Australia but it’s still 11 on the field.
The other thing is these are 15-man squads which I think is still quite weird.
In 1975 there were 14-man squads and yet despite that in the intervening years the crickets became all about match-ups and shuffling around for a change of conditions but there’s still this sort of arbitrary restriction on squads that can’t be changed unless someone gets injured. That kind of leaves you with problems if three or four of your leading players don’t get into form. You kind of have to wait for them to get back into form. Because of that strange, arbitrary restriction, it does kind of even the competition out, ever so slightly. I think it’s harder in India, the pictures being flatter, the grounds tending to high scores. It will be a game that is decided to a great degree by power and India probably has the most powerful batting lineup, certainly the deepest, the most agile, and the most impressive. My god, they are so good, they’re wonderful to watch. Whatever you might say of the BCCI, the Indian cricket team is absolutely fantastic to watch but yeah, there is just the outlier possibility that a team could get on a roll and charge through. Once you get through to the knockout stages of a tournament, anything can happen.
SU: That sounds like a good way for us to round up and say goodbye because we’ve taken a lot of your time. But, I’m just thinking; I tend to be a lot more cynical than you. You’re saying there is an outlier possibility you’d be surprised at how many people inside cricket are saying that it’s going to be tough for the Indians because there’s England. Just before we go, what do you make of this England resurgence as an Australian? When you’re looking at and saying what is this? Why are they not playing according to the rule book that is more than 120 years old?
GH: I could say a lot about England, having been in England during the international series. I did come back with some pretty strong impressions of England cricket’s self-obsession, its self-absorption. They’re getting high on their own supply in England. They really do think that they’re single-handedly saving cricket from itself. It’s a bit hard to take but they’re a good team, they’ve got great players in them. They’re very good to watch. I just wish as I wrote towards the end of the series, that England didn’t behave like they expected a standing ovation every time they walked into the room. Isn’t it great the way you think it brings us all together?
SU: Seriously! So, because they’re listening to this. I mean they are a phenomenally awesome team and their batting is terrific and their bowling is terrific. Anyhow we’ll see how that goes but you do know that they are playing them in Lucknow. India is playing England in Lucknow which is going to be difficult, the Wicket has been relayed. It got very bad marks during the IPL and the highest total on that ground is, I think, 140. It could be off by five runs, this way or that way.
GH: They’re my favourite games though. 150 versus 160, they’re the best. I don’t want to see 100 versus 300. You want everyone to count!
SU: So, the game is going to be played at Lucknow and I have a great story to tell you about Lucknow. I was talking to one of my friends, Santosh, who is a journalist there and he was telling me about the fact that when he has to access the Lucknow Stadium. Speak about user friendly…he has to take a motorcycle up to a point and then slide down a grass bank that is a shortcut to the stadium. Anyhow, Gideon, it’s been great having you. We could talk forever. Thanks very much and hopefully we’ll have a great World Cup without all the drama and not too much of the ugliness that we are all fearing. Full of great Cricket.
GH: It is strange, you know? I’m playing on the weekend. It’s a great time of year in Australia, when we’re just about to go into the cricket season. For a club cricketer, it’s that moment before hope collides with reality. So I’m feeling pretty optimistic. I feel kind of optimistic about this World Cup. I’m really looking forward to it. There is something about these days where there is so much that’s new, so much that’s instant and invented and counterfeit and made up, that something that’s been continuous since 1975 and does have history and folklore and great moments and great players. It is something to cherish. Yeah sure, let’s try to screen out everything else. That’s probably impossible, especially for you because you’ll be in the backdraft of the BJP turbojet but from a distance here I’m sitting in for some really good cricket. Let’s hope we see it.
SU: Thank you, Gideon. Thanks so much!
GH: No worries, cheers! Okay, Sharda!
Transcribed by Karizma Ahmed.
